Friday, December 17, 2004

Abortion vs fetus murder

I hate to bring this up but cannot help it. The story linked to the title talks about babies stolen from their mothers womb....here is an excerpt:
"In the most recent case, a 21-year-old woman was shot to death in Oklahoma in December 2003, allegedly by another woman who pretended the 6-month-old fetus was her child. The fetus died and prosecutors are seeking the death penalty."
Now if it is abortion to end the existance of a fetus, and murder to take a fetus out of a mother before it dies, what exactly is the difference?


16 Comments:

At 7:57 AM, Blogger Daniel said...

So if Scott Peterson is guilty of 2nd degree murder of Conner, his UNBORN son, then the only sense I can make of the abortion laws and "choice" are.....

The only choice they will let you have is if it refers to abortion, skip school choice, firearm choice etc....

Women are granted the power of God; if they want the fetus then it is alive and hence murder if harmed in the womb, if they do not want the child it is not alive and at whatever stage of fetal development it can be killed. Even when evidence is pervasive that a fetus can live outside the womb from as early as 6 months. I don't know, I respect women, my wife is a woman (hetero-sexuality vs gay rights will have to be a different thread), my mom is a woman, I have lots of women relatives, but do I think they should have the power of God? No I don't.

 
At 6:58 AM, Blogger Ian said...

Are we confusing the 1st trimester abortion with a child who is otherwise viable (or not as the suggested 6 mo indicates)?
Or is the point directed at the hot topic 'partial birth' abortion?

And, somewhat related, this was on Yahoo about the recent death and abduction.

-
Killings of pregnant women are more common than many people realize, The Washington Post reported in Sunday's editions after a yearlong examination of death records.

Using state data and other sources, the newspaper documents the killings of 1,367 pregnant women and new mothers since 1990. It said there were undoubtedly more deaths, and that 13 states said they had no way of knowing how many such deaths occurred.

The Post said several statewide studies have found pregnant women more likely to die of homicide than of any natural cause, and that the deaths cut across racial and ethnic groups.
-
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041219/ap_on_re_us/pregnant_woman_slain

 
At 8:54 AM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Well Ian since I am obviously "anti-murder", "Pro-life",
"Pro-choice-to-include-life", I must say that I mean this to be about all abortions, however the greatest starting point is in the hypocracy of the judicial system in referance to the points I made in the original thread post. Thanks for your research of those numbers.
I would love to know if every one of the murderers of those 1367 women and their children, were charged with 2 deaths.

 
At 3:41 PM, Blogger Ian said...

It looks like you'll have to wait longer to find out. They don't even have the statistics about this as a crime. Yahoo's has a new story out that story points out more info (We should maybe all use hyperlinks more often #smile#). I'll stop back later for a more in depth. Just waiting for my girl to wake up. Soon, I am sure.

 
At 4:16 PM, Blogger Ian said...

I am back, as promised, aren't you glad :) .
I wish I could be both Pro-life and Pro-Choice, and I guess that I am.
If a person mentions anything like that in one group or the other, it is an automatic scandel. I intended to come back and offer my views on the topic, since you asked in general, but I think that with this post - like several others- I will simply observe your opinions without commenting further, as I am not sure that what I have to say will be useful. We have not had an argument - and I would like to keep it that way. I said I'd be back, and wanted you to know that I changed my mind about this topic. Thanks.

 
At 7:21 PM, Blogger Redneck Guru said...

I am anti-abortion. The true crime beyond the killing of an unborn child, as if there could be anything worse, is that there are those on the far left who are literally PRO ABORTION. They sanction abortion as a viable form of birth control.

 
At 7:43 PM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Ian don't be shy, say what you want on this site, I trust you and other guests not to let it get too out of hand.

I agree with RG by the way ;)

 
At 10:39 AM, Blogger Ian said...

Thanks. Maybe I will offer some thoughts.
The difference between murder and abortion, IMO, is simply what did the mother want, at what stage, and under what circumstances.

Having spoken with several women who have gone through the abortion procedure, it is not something that is taken lightly by most, if not all. It is painful, humiliating, dangerous, spiritually questionable, frowned upon, casts doubt upon their womanhood, and altogether unpleasant.

The number of people who believe all babies should be aborted are extremely few and do not represent the voice of the vast, vast majority of people on the Choice side of this issue. All sides have their extremists.

I don't have answers to most questions in life, and take solace in faith and look for suggestions from science when I feel lost. Science has declared that at 3 months there is some kind of line in the sand that when crossed a fetus becomes something more human than the potential of human that existed before. For me it is this 3-month mark that should act as a cut off point for abortion.

With regard to faith I would like to see the potential life of a child preserved. Also, my beliefs tell me that I must also acknowledge that it isn't I who is facing the struggles of the mother, be they mental, economical, or spiritual, and that it isn't my communication with God and self that has taken place. It is only the woman herself who has come to terms with the decision.

We are all offered the choice to sin, or not to sin. And save for cases where society must step in to protect the actual structure of society itself, freedom and choices are best left to people, so that people can find their way to faith and God.

Without the option of a safe abortion some women put themselves into serious danger by seeking out illegal abortions. Women who make such choices, legal or illegal, do so out of desperation. I feel empathy for these women. I feel grateful for what safety and comfort that can be afforded to these women in their time of pain. It would be a shame to remove this little moment of care in the lives of someone in need.

I recognize and respect deeply the beliefs that a spirit of God has been created at conception, and must be protected. This is also a very powerful belief. I see that many people are very moved by this feeling to speak for the child without a voice. And I think that these voices are important. I also believe that life is not black - white - and gray. It is a huge spectrum of color - that God is expressed in the rocks and trees, and in the unpleasant things in life, and in the mistakes that people make. I counter, that it is so, so important to provide a safe and nurturing place for the people of the world, so that everyone can come to find God that exists within us all. In doing so, reasons for abortion will be greatly reduced.

This little ... essay.. goes far beyond the question presented in the post. I really do appreciate the opportunity to present my view. I wish there were more forums like this where people could speak in rational tones so that we can all learn from each other. Thank you

 
At 12:21 PM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Thanks for taking part Ian. The problem with limited abortion, say your presumption of earlier than 3 monthes, is that Pro abortion persons will try to extend it to, well, what it is today, abortion on demand, up to the date of birth, regardless of the status of mother and child (meaning mom is healthy and the baby will thrive if allowed to be born). This to me is completely unacceptable, and if it means getting rid of all to avoid the few, then I am for it. Everyone says its about choice, I say the choice was made to have sex, the choice was made to not use birth control, the man had a choice in all this and should have a voice in any attempt to end a pregnancy too.

 
At 2:56 PM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Hereis a story about an 8.6 ounce child delivered by cesarean at 26 weeks. This child is alive.
Thissite shows a chart on babies born between 1938 and 2004, some as early as 23 weeks, and they were all alive.

 
At 1:44 PM, Blogger Ian said...

Those are amazing links there. It is wonderous what science and medicine can do these days. Isn't it? It sort of suggests that if anyone does not wish to carry a child to term that they could be offered the option (or be forced into surgery) to birth a child after 25 weeks. I guess that then the state could take care of the child at that point. Hmm

Anyway I said before- Pro-Abortion is rare. Probably as rare as the terrorists, yes I said terrorists who kill and bomb in the name of prolife.

For some reason some people on both sides feel they must push the extremes in order to defend their basic points. As a result it becomes more and more difficult to make any reasonable compromise. No one has all the right answers. The best we can do is to try to get along the best that we can. Apply this to most any topic, and I hold it to be true.
We are all correct.

P.S. Also note that the ACLU sided with Pro-Life on the case involving targeting doctors online.

Thanks for the chance to repsond. I wll read your reply and leave you with the last word. Cheers!

 
At 7:40 PM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Never said anyone would be "forced" to deliver.
Saw this and had to post it.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=358130&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

 
At 9:00 AM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

This article is about a couple charged with murder for the death of a fetus.

 
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