Wednesday, December 08, 2004

Outsourcing

This is a link to a liberal blog that Angela and I debate(d) on. I have stopped going there because of the constant insults. In the first post I am including what led up to my final post on this site. I decided not to post it over there, the sarcasm would have been too deep.

16 Comments:

At 7:36 AM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Angela said...
OK here is a portion of the debate raging over there. Note how mean spirited Chris is, and how apologetic Angela is, then look at Chris' #'s and arguement and make up your own mind if he has a clue or not. I guess he can just make up numbers and then get mad when someone calls him on it....


Angela said...

Oh and I know that you are going to blow a gasket on the "near full employment" comment. Stop. Don't even think of bringing up Kanopolis, NC either. Here is what I'm talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment
In economics, full employment has more than one meaning. To many LAYPEOPLE, it means zero unemployment or underemployment. To economists, it means the lowest level of unemployment that can be sustained given the structure of the economy. In standard macroeconomics, when unemployment equals the NAIRU the real gross domestic product equals potential output.

11:09 AM

Angela said...

Anyway, I have another question. Why would you expect inflation adjusted family income to continue to increase over time? I know that sounds trite, but think about it. Shouldn't we expect family income to stay exactly the same when we correct for inflation? Doesn't an increase, any increase indicate a surplus? Please explain to me why the slope of that line shouldn't be zero?

11:52 AM

Dan said...

You're not being baited, Angela. You're being annoying.

Hook me up.

"Americans without a college degree -- who make up about three-quarters of the adult population -- now earn lower wages in real terms than they did a generation ago."

That look like a slope of zero to you? If that wasn't a negative slope, I would've never brought it up! What's more, I've shown elsewhere on the blog that the size of the middle class is shrinking while the number of Americans living in poverty is ballooning. The upper class? Unchanged. Yessir. This is a real nice slope of zero we've got.

I'll talk about Kannapolis if I damn well please. The fact is that manufacturing jobs in this country are being exported overseas. Those textile workers from North Carolina are now UNEMPLOYED. That's "unemployed" as in they don't have fucking jobs anymore. They're not theoretically unemployed. THEY DON'T HAVE JOBS. Surely laypeople like yourself don't need degrees in economics to understand that. I definitely don't need one to be concerned about their fate. You may not feel the need to "boo-hoo," but then again you vote Republican. You'll excuse me for noticing if the middle class starts failing because of you.

As to your links -

First article is a summary of findings by "Brink Lindsey of the Cato Institute." That's out. Second article deals with the magic of IT jobs going to India. Terrif! Even our information-technology service jobs can leave!

Last two articles deal with exports from Germany. "Without exports, Germany's economy wouldn't have grown at all in the first half." The first article, from Bloomberg, does seem to conclude that Germany needs a stronger transition to a service-based economy. That's fine, but any contention that manufacturing should be exclusively the domain of the third-world is retarded. I'm glad your Huffy still works. My Korean made Fender guitar became virtually unusable about 2 months after my sixteenth birthday. Today it's worthless. The American-made one I payed 3X more for, aesthetically almost indistinguishable, is a great-sounding and durable instrument that will sound better with age and is not unlikely to appreciate in value.

I didn't read any links supporting your contention that outsourcing brings jobs to the country. If that's true, I'd like to know what jobs they are. They don't seem to be high paying ones, as the middle class is (say it with me) getting poorer. I also don't know how you've drawn the causative connection between a rising GDP and increased outsourcing. Nor do I see anything to show that the increased GDP doesn't turn into dollars for the wealthy alone. I look forward to finding out. Nothing from the Cato Institute please.

As for what I'd like to do to the economy, I don't need you speaking for me. I frankly don't think there's a Bush supporter smart enough to do that. Let me give you a hint as to one thing I'd like to see changed. Make education of low cost and high quality. You want to see higher paying jobs and a successful economy? Start with a smarter workforce. As I stated above, we're moving backwards on that. Thank you, big government Republican administration, for fucking the states!

Finally, I do not underestimate the importance of lower-cost goods. The only point you've made that has merit is that now lower income families can afford cheaper things. That's a good thing. It's especially important considering HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE POOR THESE DAYS.

5:00 PM

Angela said...

This post has been removed by the author.

12:11 PM
chris said...

You have got to be kidding me. Angela, with all do respect what do you know about Kannapolis (note the correct spelling)? If we don’t bring up Kannapolis, which by the way has lost a total of 31,000 jobs to outsourcing, then I guess we shouldn’t mention, Eden, Salisbury, Concord, Hillsborough, Rockwell, China Grove, Spencer, Landis, Swannoa, Rocky Mount, Burlington, High Point, Reidsville, just to name a few with textile mills now currently operating overseas. Have you ever even visited any of the above mentioned cities? You should stick to your statistics and googling and leave “reality” to those that have seen the impact with their own eyes. By the way, why have you even heard of Kannapolis? Is it because it was in the news due to the largest layoff in North Carolina history? I would love to see you on main street in Kannapolis giving the economist definition of what it means to be unemployed. I am sure all those people currently without jobs and in foreclosure would really understand. If you ask me I would say YOU are theoretically unemployed since you spend all day blogging. If you haven’t noticed your general uncompassionate, self righteous viewpoints about those in dire straits without jobs in the state that is educating/paying YOU has thoroughly pissed me off. These people spent their entire lives contributing to their local and state economy only to be left behind when it became cheaper to move overseas. I would venture to say that the average hiester driver in Kannapolis will have contributed more to North Carolina than you or I ever will. What are we to say to him, “hey I know you’re 55 and have worked your ass your whole life, but surely you can go greet people at Wal Mart or something”, “or maybe you should have been educating yourself while working 60 hour weeks, raising a family, and taking care of grandma”. And before you mention Wal Mart, which I know you’re a fan of the elderly working there, last year a super Wal Mart opened near Kannapolis and they had over 200 applications for each position. I guess peddling Japanese and Mexican products wasn’t quite as lucrative for those in Kannapolis was it? But hey, “don’t bring up Kannapolis.” You know what I agree with you for once .“Don’t fucking bring up Kannapolis, unless you have seen it with your own eyes” After all, I spent 18 years in Kanopolis (as you spell it) and both my parents lost their jobs to outsourcing, maybe there is someone that “has the right to bring up Kannapolis”. Thanks for your unemployment definition I will read it to them; I am sure it will make them feel much better about things.

12:22 PM

Angela said...

Dan, hope you are feeling better.

When I asked about inflation-adjusted family income it was because of a quote you included in your original comment. What the “inflation-adjusted family income” positive slope probably measures is the increase in standard of living. It seems that for 30 years before 1979 there was a greater increase in the standard of living than in the last 25 years. Nonetheless, we have seen a steady increase in our standard of living over the last 25 years. I personally think that manufacturing jobs can’t account for these numbers, the change we see in inflation adjusted family income is probably a measure of the increase of women in the workforce, a trend which had grown exponentially until 1979 and has slowed since (you only have so many women right?)

A Labor Dept report showed that only 2.5% of layoffs were due to outsourcing. Further, a study done by Charles Schultze , argued that IF production needs were being met by outsourcing, a rise in the percent of US imports value relative to the GDP would be seen. But this is not the case. This value plateaued in 2000. The conclusion of his study was: "there is nothing in the data to suggest that large increases in. . . offshoring could have played a major role in explaining America's job performance in recent years. "

A Dartmouth economicsstudy which examined job growth for foreign and US multinational corporations found that between 1991 and 2001foreign affiliates of US corporations increased their overseas payrolls by 2.9 million workers but the same companies added 5.5 million additional US employees. This demontrates that outsourcing adds more jobs to the US economy than it takes away. Sounds terrible huh?

Here is my other point you asked about GDP. The savings from moving jobs abroad creates cashflow that stimulates job creation here in the US. A study by Lawrence Klein at Global Insight examined outsourcing in IT. Outsourcing generated a net increase of 90,000 jobs during 2003 in the US, in both IT and non-IT sectors. The study also found “that the cost savings of IT outsourcing lowered inflation throughout the US economy, increased consumer spending, and "contributed significantly" to the overall growth of US GDP. It said that by 2008, "real GDP is expected to be $124 billion higher than it would be in an environment in which offshore IT. . .outsourcing does not occur. " “ Again this study shows that the popular myth of outsourcing is a flawed target.

The last person to run on the isolationist agenda you endorse was Pat Buchanan. He only carried Palm Beach in the 2000 election. And that was by accident.

12:25 PM

Angela said...

Welcome to the discussion Chris. I looked up the population of Kannapolis (my apologies for the misspelling) and there are only 38,245 residents. I suppose if 31,000 of them were laid off that was an enormous blow to their economy and their lives. I also looked up some of the reasons for those layoffs and as it turns out Pillowtex went bankrupt and laid off 3,688 residents of Rowan and Cabarrus counties. Please correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that Pillowtex was in decline for more than 20 years. This article points out some great issues about outsourcing as it pertains to Pillowtex, be sure and read the entire thing. Here is an important point you don’t want to skim past:

“Pillowtex made sheets and towels -- items still subject to quotas and tariffs when made abroad. Other factors besides imports contributed to Pillowtex's problems, such as heavy debt, weak retail sales and consumers' preferences for low-price goods, which are mainly coming from low-wage countries.”

Chris I am truly sorry for the heartache that this has put your family through. I flippantly used Kannapolis, because Dan has brought it up before as an excuse to sidestep facts he did not want to hear. I apologize.

12:59 PM

Dan said...

This post has been removed by the author.

1:38 PM
chris said...

Angela,

Glad to see you were able to teach me something about my hometown. What arrogance! My Mom was VP for Pillowtex, my Dad was plant manager. Like I said before outsourcing was a huge part of pilowtex mill closings. I spoke with them, yes a human being, before writing this. I didn't just google some quote offf the net. If you choose not to believe someone who worked there and lived there then your narrowed mindedness is even worse than I expected. Not sure when you Republicans are going to accept that someone else may have had experiences that could allow them to know something you don't. My point still stands, houses are forclosed, forsale, unemployment is through the roof, and people are running out of unemployment and health care benefits in Kannapolis. All and I mean All of these jobs are in Pakistan, Italy, Korea, China, etc.. If you don't believe that then should get my mom on here, she visited everyone of the above mentioned companies the last year Pillowtex was in exisitence. By the way it isn't Pillowtex, it is Cannon Mills bought by Pillowtex. Cannon Mills have been in existence for over a hundred years until now.


NOW THIS ARGUEMENT CONTINUES, BUT I HAD SEEN ENOUGH. HERE IS THE REPLY I WOULD HAVE SENT IF HE HAD NOT BEEN INSULTING ANGELA.

Glad to see civility is still the strong point of the left (note the sarcasm).
So, lets see, you want SS paid for by the “rich”, now you want cheaper college tuition, yet in another post you complained about the low pay teachers get, make up your mind, you can’t have it both ways….no let me guess, you want the “rich” to pay for it.

Chris, with all due respect to your heritage, education, and family background, there is no way a small town like Kannapolis lost 31,000 jobs, or maybe Dan was right and our education system is lacking, particularly in math skills. It’s not your fault so forget about it. By the way, I could not help but notice that you are under the impression that Angela is having her tuition paid for by the people of NC. Wrong. The NIH picks up the bill so that makes the NC part of her tuition miniscule, nice try though. Don’t worry, I am sure they are proud of the product produced by your education.

As for your comment .“Don’t fucking bring up Kannapolis, unless you have seen it with your own eyes”
I trust this applies for all things on this blog. (replace Kannapolis with any subject).

Now Chris, with all due respect to your mom and dad, if they lost their jobs due to outsourcing, how is it that there were 31,000 jobs in Kannapolis to lose? Are the deep back woods of North Carolina violating child labor laws? It is the only way this community could employ 31,000 people.

I continue reading down this thread and I see Angela apologizing to you Chris, and then you attacker her just as vehemently as you did previously. Thanks for verifying everything I always thought about liberals. Remember what Eddie Murphy said, “Stress kills mother fuckers”.

Chris, you continue with “My Mom was VP for Pillowtex, my Dad was plant manager. Like I said before outsourcing was a huge part of pilowtex mill closings”.
Do you know that you just accused your parents of being the reason they went out of business. Am I the only one that sees this? Managers and VP’s and boards, make business decisions about shipping jobs overseas.
Maybe when you said, “If you don't believe that then should get my mom on here, she visited everyone of the above mentioned companies the last year Pillowtex was in existence.” (referencing the companies in in Pakistan, Italy, Korea, China, etc)
This was what your mom was doing, visiting these countries to try and outsource in an effort to save the company. I applaud her efforts, I mean what else could she have been doing, visiting all the hot tourist spots on the DMZ? (note the sarcasm)

Dan, if this thread was really about…..”For the third time, what I am really concerned with (and you've failed to address), is that the disappearance of quality jobs - like those in manufacturing - that don't require college education is being coupled with the fact that college”. Then why did you let it go on so long about other subjects?


Hello Angry American, and goodbye, I wont be back on this site. Oh! Thanks for your service to your country, and don’t expect an answer on why you are still paying tuition from 1987, it does not pass the “Bush is at fault” test. I am still going to college, 20 years after high school, and my wife WORKED her way through school too. Also don’t expect any reply to the “sensitive war issue”, there is another thread on Social Security, but I’ll save you time, Dan and Chris think that the “rich” should pay for it. Don’t mention Hanoi Jane, you’ll not get a response unless it is an attack on Bush or republicans. And lastly, you note that Dan responded to your increased tuition question with….no surprise, an attack on Bush. Never mind that “No child left behind” was olive branch handed out by Bush, and what does he get? Attacked.

Lastly Dan, we became a super power after WWII, not because of the GI bill, but due to the fact we had atomic weapons. .“Don’t fucking bring up Kannapolis, unless you have seen it with your own eyes”

 
At 11:25 AM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

More on outsourcing.

Kerry received front page coverage in India when he said "You can't stop all outsourcing," during the second presidential debate last week. "I have never promised that," Kerry said. "I'm not going to because that would be pandering. You can't.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26646-2004Oct12.html

SEPTEMBER 20, 2004 (IDG NEWS SERVICE) - One of the central themes in Sen. John Kerry's presidential campaign is ending tax breaks for companies that send jobs overseas. But the IT community is split on whether Kerry's plan would actually keep jobs in the U.S……..The Kerry plan lacks details, noted Joe Tasker, senior vice president and general counsel for the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA), which has opposed most moves to limit offshore outsourcing. The ITAA sees a number of ways to help U.S. IT workers compete with workers in other nations, including an emphasis on training and opening more global markets to U.S. products. The ITAA argues that by limiting offshore hiring, the U.S. could start a trade war in which other nations cut back on their purchasing of U.S. IT products. The Kerry campaign didn't respond to a request for more information on the outsourcing proposal. Profits from overseas subsidiaries of U.S. companies are currently taxed -- generally at a 35% rate -- only when the company returns those profits to the U.S. Supporters of this policy argue the profits are already taxed in the country where the subsidiary is based, and without the U.S. tax deferral, those profits would be taxed twice.
http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/story/0,10801,96059,00.html

Kerry outsourcing (volunteer) campaign jobs to foreigners
From a blog, and we all know we can’t trust what we read on blogs don’t we.
http://lifeisgood.typepad.com/lifeisgood/2004/07/kerry_outsourci.html

Kerry Outsourcing Begins at Home
Industry Source | 10/5/04 | Sandrad
Posted on 10/05/2004 8:21:37 AM PDT by pabianice
Heinz Products
Look at a Heinz catsup bottle. Sure enough, it was MADE IN CANADA. Look at a jar of Heinz sandwich slice pickles. Yep.... "Made in Mexico." Check some of your Heinz products. Sen. John Kerry keeps talking about U.S. corporations leaving this country and setting up shop in foreign countries, taking thousands of jobs with them. He is right, because that has happened. However, he is trying to blame it on George W. Bush.
As far as I know, Bush has not moved one factory out of this country because he is not the owner of a single factory. That cannot be said about Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz-Kerry. According to the Wall Street Journal, the Kerrys own 32 factories in Europe and 18 in Asia and the Pacific. In addition, their company, the Heinz Company, leases four factories in Europe and four in Asia. Also, of their 27 factories in the Americas, many are in Mexico and the Caribbean.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1235794/posts

Bill Clinton is right: John Kerry should get off the topic of Vietnam and onto the topic of the economy. BuzzCharts would suggest that he bring some much-needed data analysis to the discussion of dreaded outsourcing. So far, that discussion has gone like this for Kerry & Co.: Even though the economy is growing, it’s growing only for the rich. The middle class is having more and more trouble making ends meet, what with Benedict Arnold CEOs “outsourcing” jobs to India and household incomes falling further and further behind inflation. But can Kerry back any of this up? Of course not. That’s why the more he talks about the economy the more holes are going to show up in his rhetoric.
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_buzzcharts/buzzcharts200409170837.asp

 
At 1:55 PM, Blogger Ian said...

That was an intersting site.

It lead me to feel the way I felt when Clinton was in office, I get sick when people spend too much time bashing who is in charge. Or even just bashing the other side (Dem or Rep).

Fact is, most of the time, anything that gets done by the Govt. (votes on NAFTA, for example), is a team effort. Both sides are responsible.

Ever notice that people on the far left are as against the outsourcing of jobs as are those on the far right? Maybe for different reasons, too much power in the hands of corporations, but the same mission is in place. Think of the people gathering outside the WTF meetings, protesting and carrying on. They want an end to Globalization just as much as many on the right do. Different terminology, same outcome.

I have a pressing example of this one side bashing to bring up. When the people on the right say its a communist plot (I think that is what your fellow poster, Kender, was trying to say in the "So Communisim is not a real threat" link), well, I'm not sure we are getting the same information.

For many of those points I could point right back across the isle, or even explain why some things are a good idea for a free ecomony. many of the rest I found to be exagerations, or fear baiting, and am drawn to discrediting the rest as a result. But now I am probably to be labeled a communist... and thusly should be outlawed (according to Mr. Kinder). I am getting a little worked up, so I won't go on with that side issue.

Point is. I don't think most things need to be a Left / Right issue, but I think that those in charge want us hating each other and not trying to work together.

I probably won't visit that 'To your corner' site again, or what ever it was called.

Too much negativity and not enough Star Trek.

 
At 2:34 PM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Ian you seem like a very reasonable person, I think I'll link your blog to mine as an act of non-partisanship.

I got a little perturbed at Chris on the "Back to your pissed Liberal Corner" blog because my wife apologized for mentioning his hometown to another poster, apologized, and was then ruthlessly attacked. To me this is typical of liberals, name calling and insulting. It happened to me on "Low Country" in a novemebr thread, it has happened here after I posted to a liberal web site. I guess I agree with you about the name calling. I also agree that both sides are wrong often, take the "oink, oink" post for an example.
I'll not be visiting that other site again either, you are correct, to much negativity....everything on earth is wrong because of Bush..yadda, yadda, yadda....
As for Kender and the Communist threat post. I think it is of historical record that this was the soviet plan shortly after WWII, however, with the downfall of said nation, is it still a vaalid threat? Kender was pointing out that we are following the soviet plan without the soviet union pushing it. It is arguable wether they pushed us in this direction or not in the first place, and like you, I concur that free trade (I assume this is what you were refering to as "why some things are a good idea for a free ecomony." I think this is what caused the downfall of many a dictorial or socialistic/communistic government, and may lead to the destruction of communist China as a communist nation. Look at Hong Kong. They kept it as a capitalist city state.
And you know what? I don't think I have enough Star Trek here either. Maybe a link.

 
At 2:57 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Great exchange.

No, I don't think it is a communist plot, as such, however it could certainly be argued that a great number of the communist goals from back then have been enacted by the left. Some of them I am for. Free trade. However, I don't like the idea of the government telling me how to raise my son.

I also hate the idea of a world court. I enjoy the protections, as a citizen of the U.S, of the protections of the constitution and the bill of rights. Even if those were written into the "World Charter" or whatever they would call it, I have no desire to see that come about. As for disarming the citizens, (an unrelated point mostly), if that ever happens you can be sure that the Connally Reservation would be gone and the U.N.A.F. would be rolling down our streets.

Thanks for the link to me, and I await with an evil grin any lib. so foolish as to stop to take me to task.

 
At 3:05 PM, Blogger Ian said...

Thanks for the link, I will likewise reciprocate, but on a different site (sonicist.com). I read the Democratic Realism link off your wifes blog. Heavy.
I am still digesting it. I'll stop by again later.

 
At 4:35 PM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Thanks for stopping by guys, I like this non-partisan participation, without insulting each other, however, lets talk outsourcing on this thread and leave the communisim on the comunism thread. As for everything else, well, thats what "Rants and Raves" is for. You can even suggest topics for new threads if you wish.

 
At 9:34 PM, Blogger cracker said...

Thanks for the link to the blog to piss me off Mr. Nixon. I really appreciate it.

(After claming down) These are the people that believe a job belongs to the worker rather than the business. They have no clue that if a business is not allowed to compete by finding that competitive advantage whether it's something no one else sells or it has the lowest prices, that it will fail and everyone will lose their jobs.

Outsourcing is a means of cost reduction and increasing profits. Increasing profits is a means to expansion. Expansion is a means of increasing the number of available jobs. Increasing the number of available jobs means more people will be hired.

If a business is not allowed to outsource and reduce costs and increase profits, it will therefore, not expand and create jobs. Unless a business can keep wages low to the point of being competitive to wages founded elsewhere, the prices of goods and services produced by that company will be artificially high and will not benefit the consumer or the economy.

The major problems facing companies that outsource are maintaining quality and productivity. Though a company may pay workers 1/4 the salary of an American worker, the American worker with modern technology may be 10 times more productive. This would mean that it is more cost effective to keep production in America. HP has had a problem with quality. They outsourced their tech support to India. When customers complained about the language barrier, HP brought some of that back to America to keep customers happy and quality service up.

just my opinion.

 
At 6:42 AM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Thanks for stopping by Cracker, sorry about pissing you off, but rude, un(mis)informed, close minded liberals will do that to you. Personally if they want to believe that fine, I was actually more upset about him being wrong on his numbers, getting corrected, throwing a fit, having Angela apologize for upseting him, and then he attacked her again. Now THAT pissed me off.

 
At 10:07 AM, Blogger ric ottaiano said...

What a coincidence...I just happened to wander into that blog yesterday...thanks for the warning...for a real hoot, take a look at www.msliberty.blogspot.com where the insults fly fast and furious in the comments sections but not a note of substance to be found

 
At 1:52 PM, Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Thanks for the tip ric, but I'll avoid the insult fests, they tend to annoy me. I am going to try and keep this blog civil. By the way, I linked to your site.

 
At 3:10 AM, Blogger FriendlyGuy1212 said...

Very nice blog, hard to come by these days,

If you have a chance, can you visit my how to play guitar site

It has all guitar related stuff.

Thanks

 
At 6:53 PM, Blogger paymaster said...

Hi Richard Nixon,

As a result of reading your blog "Outsourcing", I think you will discover my site on Highest Wages In All States will be a great help.

To illustrate our diverse range of wages information, here are some of the latest search terms that located our site ...

Civil Engineers Wages
Media Wages
Builders Wages
Accountants Wages
Social Services Wages
Computer Programmer Wages
Construction Wages.

We have over 200 "have to read" career and wages articles in addition to many other interesting subjects in our Wages For All Occupations site.

Best Regards
Emily

 
At 5:49 AM, Blogger BLOG CREATE JEANE said...

Hi Richard Nixon!I like your blog! Keep up the
good work, you are providing a great resource on the Internet here!
If you have a moment, please take a look at my site:
windsor job search
It pretty much covers windsor job search related issues.
Best regards!

 
At 4:09 AM, Blogger BLOG WEB PETER said...

I just came across your blog and wanted to
drop you, Richard Nixon, a note telling you how impressed I was with
the information you have posted here.
If you have a moment, please visit my site:
jobs overseas
It covers jobs overseas related contents.
I send you warm regards and wish you continued success.

 
At 7:23 PM, Blogger Cornie said...

Hey, you have a great blog here! I'm definitely going to bookmark you!
I have a freelance writers site/blog. It pretty much covers freelance writers related stuff.
Come and check it out if you get time :-)

 

Post a Comment

<< Home